Jeff Bezos was a Montessori child — and became one of the most successful entrepreneurs in history.
Is there a connection between early Montessori education and later success in business?
Our guest today, the ed-tech entrepreneur William Kelly, thinks there can be, if an individual chooses such a career path for his or her life.
And Will himself is proof, being a former Montessori child who now attributes much of his success as an adult to his Montessori schooling.
You can learn more about Will Kelly and reach him at dot-duel.com.
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About Jesse McCarthy
For 20 years, Jesse McCarthy has worked with thousands of children, parents, teachers and administrators — as a principal for infants to 8th graders, an executive with a nationwide group of private schools, an elementary & junior-high teacher, and a parent-and-teacher mentor.
Jesse received his B.A. in psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) and his Montessori teacher's diploma for ages 2.5 to 6+ from Association Montessori Internationale (AMI), the organization founded by Dr. Maria Montessori.
Jesse has spoken on early education and child development at schools around the globe, as well as at popular organizations in and outside of the Montessori community: from AMI/USA to Twitter. Jesse now heads MontessoriEducation.com and hosts The Montessori Education Podcast.
Transcript
Montessori - Entrepreneurs in the Making
[00:00:00] Jesse McCarthy: The educator Dr. Maria Montessori once said,
[00:00:10] Maria Montessori: The child developing harmoniously and the adult improving himself at his side make a very exciting and attractive picture.
[00:00:19] Jesse McCarthy: Welcome to Montessori Education with me, Jesse McCarthy, where we talk raising children and educating students while bettering ourselves right alongside them.
Hey everyone, nice to be back. Since last time, I've had a few listeners actually writing me for personal updates, you know, to kind of share with everyone out there. So at the end of this episode, I will tell you a few things that have been going on. But starting off here, I'm going to just play you a quick clip from Jeff Bezos, actually.
It'll, it'll make sense as we go along. So here we go.
[00:00:51] Jeff Bezos: This is really personal for me. My mom had me when she was a 17 year old high school student in Albuquerque, New Mexico. But I was really lucky. I got to go to a Montessori school. I remember using the sandpaper letters that you trace, the boards that you use to learn how to tie shoes.
I mean, these things may sound really small, but I know it made a huge difference in my life.
[00:01:15] Jesse McCarthy: Bezos was a Montessori child and he's also currently building dozens of what he calls quote Montessori inspired Preschools or academies and that's just all across America now I don't have Bezos on the show today.
If if anyone doesn't know him though connect us and I will do that in the future Instead I'll be talking with another successful tech entrepreneur and former Montessori child William Kelly Although will hasn't Quite reached Amazon Heights similar to Bezos. He does credit part of his success in business and in life overall to Montessori education.
But what's interesting to me is that, business or making money. might not actually be considered all that great in our culture today. It's definitely not one of the professions most people think of as noble. Now, Will knows a little about this, where people can be pretty cynical about financial success, or at least some people.
For instance, during one part of our conversation, I do read a couple of troll type comments that Will got just for Being in business, uh, specifically in his case education technology or ed tech But whatever one's opinions on making money What I wanted to do today is dive into the connection between being a Montessori child and then later potentially becoming an entrepreneur and will offers super great insight into this connection and subject so let's get to it. William kelly.
Thanks for coming on again. Glad to see you
[00:02:50] William Kelly: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Jesse. It's great to connect.
[00:02:52] Jesse McCarthy: So I thought I'd start with, you know, given that we're going to be talking about business, entrepreneurial endeavors, you've been successful in this realm, you had a lot of years in Montessori, so how did Montessori help?
If at all.
[00:03:08] William Kelly: Yeah, I would definitely say that it helped a lot. You know, I went to a Montessori school in. Raleigh, North Carolina from the age of three through the eighth grade. So really through all of the formative years of my education, I was benefiting from the Montessori environment and the Montessori method.
I think first and foremost, it allowed me to develop a level of independence and trust in myself that I was capable of learning new things, doing new things on my own from a very young age, uh, interestingly enough, when I was in second grade, um, I was a little bit ahead on the math curriculum and there was a new student who was a little bit behind and so they, said, Hey, Will, you know, do you want to help Brett learn how to square numbers and cube numbers?
And I was said, sure, of course I could, I could do that. And reflecting back on that now being in the tutoring space and going on to do a lot of tutoring myself. I recognize that as kind of the first time where I was in a position of a peer tutor, and I think that experience and many more that followed it helped to build beyond just the independence to learn as an individual, but the confidence to help other people learn and to collaborate and problem solve collectively.
And then really more than anything else, the biggest thing that I've found to be important in the business world and in life in general is just resilience. And I think the beauty of the Montessori method is that if I don't get it right the first time, we don't move on to a new lesson or a new subject or on to the next test as you might in a traditional.
Linear learning environment. I just do it again until I get it right. Um, and I think that helps to instill a belief that if you Continue to be resilient and try again and try again. You'll eventually figure it out. And that's been the most important thing for me in the business world and definitely the most transferable skill that I would attribute pretty directly to my experience at Montessori.
[00:05:20] Jesse McCarthy: Okay. So interesting that you say these things. So the two things that hop out and I want you to comment on the first is this idea of resilience. And I, I just hear this a lot in, education circles. It's like, you got to tell, you can do it. You know, the Si se puede! That, you know, it's just, and there's just a lot of talk at children.
As if you go online, there's a lot of business kind of spokespeople and they're jazzing you up. Oh, you, you can do. But real businessmen will say, You just need to get your hands dirty, get a job, get working, get experience. And Montessori, in my view, seems to be the same where it's like, no, these kids are just doing the work and they're, they're falling down.
They're getting back up, but it's not a teacher in their ear going, you can do it. So I'm curious in your experience, did you have the teacher going? You could do it, you could do it. Or was it the environment that allowed that kind of, you know, risk taking and trial and error?
[00:06:08] William Kelly: I would definitely say the environment, and that's a really important distinction to draw, so I appreciate you raising that, Jesse.
I mean, there's telling people you're capable of doing something, and then there's creating an environment in which they will begin to believe themselves that they're capable, and it almost doesn't need to be said. You know, it's not even a question of, am I capable of doing it? It's just creating an environment where it's okay to not get it right the first time.
There's not a finite grade delivered, you failed at this thing, it's Okay, here's what you did. Well, here's what you didn't do. Well, next step is do it again and, you know, get better at the areas you need to improve on. And I think, as you said, you know, really getting your hands dirty being hands on, um, that environment helps to.
Instill that confidence in that allows for the resiliency to develop without someone necessarily needing to be a cheerleader. Now, that's not to say, you know, the teachers weren't supportive because they were, but is definitely more the environment that allowed for, especially for myself personally and from others, my peers who went through the school with me over the years, uh, really developed that confidence and that resiliency, uh, through that experience.
[00:07:32] Jesse McCarthy: Given that you just mentioned your peers to related to this. So a common criticism or concern that I hear from parents is, well, you know, Montessori is all about independence, independence, independence, being this individual and he's in the corner, just working on his own.
And they kind of have this, you start to develop this, this vision of these. Unique children, just on their own, no community, no social element. So can you talk about how that independence, at least gaining that independence and then being able to work with others, how does that work in a Montessori environment in your
[00:08:03] William Kelly: experience? So in my experience, there was definitely a lot of collaboration with others. I feel like it's.
It's almost, um, an interesting situation because it's often the way I've heard it spoken about and the way that I conceptualize it a lot is thinking about the individual student and, you know, kind of follow the child, follow, you know, student led learning. And it does create the impression that it's very independent, uh, and in a lot of ways it is.
But it also create, at least for me, it created opportunities for a meaningful engagement with other students in the learning experience. So there would be works that I'd be working on by myself. There would be things that I'd be working on with other students in the classroom. Which I think is very akin to how you need to be well positioned to succeed as an adult, whether in business or just in life in general.
You need to be able to do things on your own, and you also need to be able to work effectively with others. So, one of my favorite memories of, of collaboration, you know, in the, in the classroom was, in, I believe the fourth grade, me and a couple other fourth graders, uh, after sitting in a session that was given by Junior Achievement on entrepreneurship, uh, we developed our own board game.
And there was some math that went into it, and we had to figure out. You know, some probabilities. And so there was a educational component, but it was really fun application of, we just learned about the concept of creating your own business and, you know, creating a new product that doesn't exist. And so we chose a board game as the outlet and it allowed for the three of us to apply a lot of what we were.
Learning mathematically around probabilities, um, to create something. And it, it felt very meaningful at such a young age to be able to create something that felt very real and, Oh, we'd go to the store and buy a board game and that's what adults do. They make board games, but we're, you know, nine, 10 years old.
We made one too, and it's fun and you can play it. And so I think. With those types of things, and I'm sure I could go on and on and on about examples of working with others, it created really meaningful opportunities to showcase. Yes, we can do great things on our own, but we can do even greater things when we're working with one another.
[00:10:36] Jesse McCarthy: That's awesome. And being in Montessori for so long in the backend, kind of knowing the theory and the philosophy, I'm sure people can hear that and go, well, my child in a maker space and they're, they're developing things with other people.
But the development of the math development of the self confidence to be able to do that project was done at a younger age. I'm sure with, with you. So I just, I'm adding this part: is you can't really have that type of collaboration if you have no knowledge. No confidence because that's, I mean, I'm sure we've all worked with somebody and we might've been that ourselves at some point where you don't get much done if somebody is just very beat up in the corner, feeling like they can't accomplish anything or they don't have any knowledge.
So I just throwing that in the back end of Montessori is that there's a lot that develops up to the fourth grade, you know, William. That's able to accomplish that. Do you see that or do you think that's off?
[00:11:26] William Kelly: Or no, I think that's a hundred percent valid. You have to, to have the skill sets to be able to have a meaningful collaboration with others.
You know, the only reason that was such a memorable experience for me is because all three of us brought a lot to that. Exchange and that encounter and it was learning from one another. And, uh, you know, we've each been on our own learning journey up to that point. And we enter into this upper elementary classroom as fourth graders, the youngest age group in the group, and we do something that none of the sixth graders had done.
And it felt very meaningful for us to do that together. But as you mentioned, it's only possible because each of us had so much. gotten to a place where we were able to bring something to the table where I might have been more interested on the math component and another one of the students was more interested on the visual design, uh, of the game with all the spaces and, uh, geometry that had been learned.
And so it was, it was an interesting early opportunity for me to recognize the power of working with other people who can bring their own unique perspectives and skill sets to the table so that we can create something, uh, collectively that exceeds what we might be able to create on our own.
[00:12:45] Jesse McCarthy: I know I had mentioned something to you before about our last conversation that we had, because it was kind of this, Hey, does Montessori make a difference?
And we had this ed tech guy it was such a positive. You know, feedback from fans and listeners and so forth, but we had a couple and I just want to read Read to you because I thought it was kind of funny It'll be connected with some of the stuff I want to chat with you about but so here's one comment and please Don't be offended.
So I you know I'm sure you're not going to take this too harshly, but here we go so This is, it was a Facebook comment. Montessori will turn you into a successful capitalist so you can provide useless edtech products to a new generation. Yay! Okay, so that's, that's one of the comments, but I'll give you the, the second, uh, doozy.
So he took his Montessori education and moved into edtech, which completely undermines the entire philosophy. So what do you think is going on here? And I don't think this is just a one off I have heard in Montessori.
People are, sometimes you'll hear anti capitalism or anti business. We, so, is that your take? And, what do you think is going on, generally with that?
[00:13:55] William Kelly: Yeah, well, first of all, I appreciate you sharing these with me because I'm no longer on social media, so I don't see the negativity that is, that is out there.
But I think, you know, there definitely is a lot of very valid criticism around some of the downsides of capitalism. But. In this case, you know, I would feel very strongly that, um, you know, each of those comments and we can go through them, you know, one by one is creating a false equivalency between what we're trying to do over here, with our, our business venture, which is, you know, very impact focused and what might be done, um, by certain corporations out there that are not quite so impact focused.
And so I think that. You know, really the, the simplest way that I can say it is having an organization and an entity that is oriented towards making a profit making money, um, is not inherently at odds with driving a positive impact on the world. And I think that. In education technology in particular, there are a lot of really great examples of companies and entrepreneurs who have developed really meaningful advancements that have a far wider reaching impact on students than could have been achieved if delivered through a different venue or mechanism.
So I think there's a lot that. Business has to offer in terms of being able to make meaningful impact in the world. And, you know, for people out there who, you know, think about business. Negatively, I would encourage them to really have more of a discerning eye on specific businesses, how they're structured, what their incentives are, what their mission is, and what their actual work does in the world.
Um, because we all inherently know that not all businesses are bad. Um, all kind of sweeping generalizations are typically not a good idea as we know. But if you have the discernment to look at the structure of, of the entity and what it's designed to do, it can be really telling, uh, as far as. Whether it's set up to drive an impact or not.
[00:16:26] Jesse McCarthy: So in terms of driving an impact, I'm curious how you got into the tutoring business. I know we talked about on the last podcast episode, but in the framework here, I'm getting at is like, take Steve jobs. He's excited about making a computer. It's not necessarily that I want, the first step isn't I want to change the world.
It's, Oh, this is a cool, this is a cool thing that I'm building. Oh, it's other people want this cool thing that I'm building. And wow, I can make money and enjoy my life a little bit more with some money by selling the cool thing that I'm building. Um, so do you see that as somehow inherently Bad versus being like, oh, I want to make change.
I want to help other people Would just the desire to be like, oh, I made a cool product other people want it I want to sell it. Do you you know, how do you how do you see that?
[00:17:11] William Kelly: Yeah, and I think that You know at its core each of those examples carries a lot that you know should be viewed very positively the idea that An individual has enough passion to learn enough about any subject or area That they're able to create something that has not yet been created in the world.
And they push the boundaries of that space. You know, if you look at the technology space, there's a lot of great examples of that. Step one is not I'm a 10 year old and one day I'm going to be a billionaire. Step one is I'm a 10 year old and I really love computers. And step two is learning everything there is to know about that space.
At present and step three is being well positioned enough to connect the dots on the existing knowledge that's in the space and creating something that didn't previously exist. And then after that, you know, as lots of these great examples of companies will show. You know, it's almost like the business comes as an afterthought it's, Oh, wow.
I made something really meaningful. People want it. Let me figure out a way to make a business around this so I can continue along with my passion and, you know, have. Uh, a stable job to pay for my family. And then it kind of snowballs from there on some of these extreme examples where they are highly effective at executing that from a business perspective.
But I think it is really important to think about the origin of it all. You know, if I. Uh, the, one of the ways that I think about it in the present context, one of the reasons why I'm not super active on social media, I see a lot of content there around business, that's really just about how can you make a few extra dollars, you know, this concept of a hustle that is around like.
Reselling stuff you bought on Amazon and then selling it on eBay, right? There is nothing happening there other than I want to take some money out of a market inefficiency. But when you're thinking about creating a business and an entity, um, you know, you're creating something new in the world that has not previously existed.
And that to me is inherently impactful. Because it's never existed until you, you made it exist.
[00:19:40] Jesse McCarthy: I'm curious because, you had said something earlier that it seemed that maybe the school that you were at was encouraging business, because I think you had said there was some kind of entrepreneurial thing going on.
So that doesn't sound like the norm, so I'm curious, what was going on there?
Were they, were they pushing you to be these kind of billionaire, greedy people, or were they excited about you guys creating things? What was going on there?
[00:20:05] William Kelly: Yeah. So it's actually an interesting story there and it certainly wasn't a regular ongoing thing. It was one. Session that we had one day and I think another one of the reasons why I remember it so well is that my dad actually came in and let it so, uh, my dad has, you know, been in business for, um, his entire career after graduating from, from college.
Um, and so he, through the junior achievement organization, uh, held this workshop for us. And for those who are not familiar, junior achievement is a great organization that. Goes out as a nonprofit and helps to engage students in these types of workshops, other programs to help them feel capable. I mean, it's really a lot of the same things that the Montessori method is centered around.
It's showcasing students, uh, they'll traditionally go into more traditional schools where students might not have these opportunities inherently. But it's giving them the space to show that they can create something. Um, and that really, I believe instills a lot of that confidence that we were talking about earlier to show, Hey, if I'm capable of coming up with a business idea and actually creating a new product and figuring out, you know, how that would need to be.
Sourced and structured and priced, et cetera. It showcases that not only do you have the requisite skills to do that, uh, but also if you work hard enough at something, you will be able to figure it out, which is really the core of the, the messaging there. So definitely not a common occurrence. I don't know if it ever happened before or since, I think maybe.
My dad had done that for a couple other classes during the time that me and my sisters were in school there. I don't know if it's still happening or not, but I really do believe that those types of, of workshops and that organization, is really impactful for students, especially at that age.
[00:22:09] Jesse McCarthy: So that gives a little bit more context coming in. And I think that is happening in a lot of good Montessori schools out there, elementary, junior high, because they have, they bring people in. So they might bring different, you know, who knows a composer, a doctor. And then they kind of talk about what they've done in the world.
And hopefully there's some encouragement that, yeah, this is possible. If this is type of career you'd like to pursue, this is possible. Um, so I think that's actually a great element of Montessori, but it's, it's curious because one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast with you is because I, I imagine that.
Having business men in is not the highlight, at least for the teachers generally. And I think I want to kind of flip that and get to like some of the people that have created some of the most amazing, impactful things that have helped my life personally. I mean, I'm sure, I don't know what kind of phone you're holding, you know, like it's just, there's so much criticism of some business people.
Where we utilize their products and they're it's so awesome. And I do want to comment on what you said earlier, which I think is very, very important. I'm really happy you raised it is that, it's almost like there's a bias. Against businessmen and you should and of course there are bad businessmen, of course, and there are good businessmen So with anything else in our lives, it's silly to be grouping these people and being all bad.
Yeah, we're all good. So I I appreciate you getting the further context with that Do you think there was anything else in the Montessori curriculum as such that kind of aids people to be able to be an entrepreneur? You know Is there anything specific that comes to mind? As a part of the, the formal, this is
[00:23:47] William Kelly: Montessori education.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, definitely the, the hands on, um, you know, learning experience from a young age, the concept of, you know, more mastery learning of you do something until you learn how to do it. And then you move on to the next step in the curriculum. You don't move on because the class moved on. You move on when you're ready to move on.
I think that really instills the appropriate mindset. To learning and in entrepreneurship, if you're truly engaged in a venture, that is creating something that does not already exist. So not if you're creating a company that is in a well defined space and you're doing something that other companies have done, you can look to those companies and say, what have they learned that we can do?
But when you're creating something new, uh, you really have to figure it out on your own, uh, because nobody's done it before. And I think that mindset of you keep doing something until you've learned how to do it well and then you move on to the next thing. Is really central to being able to have a entrepreneurial venture that can succeed and exist for long enough to succeed because it's no given or guarantee that your venture is going to be successful.
I think the, I don't know the updated number, but last time I looked at it north of 98 percent of. Startup businesses fail within the first two years. Um, and so for those that continue and continue to push past all the obstacles in the way, the only way you're doing that is by having a strong learning orientation in the organization.
And I think that the Montessori education, at least for me from a young age, helped prove to be, uh, an effective learner. You need to be comfortable being uncomfortable. If that makes sense, not knowing things, being at the edge of what, what I know and what I don't know, so I can push forward. And I think that's really the most valuable piece, but beyond that, I mean, you know, as early as.
The first or second grade, I can remember sitting down with my teacher and thinking about, I would present the plan for what I was going to learn this week and we would talk about it and, um, make sure that we are both on the same page, but I would create that plan. And so from, you know, not only in, in the structured context of there's a learning curriculum and I'm moving through the different works and I'm learning how to master all the different skills and concepts and materials in the space.
But I'm also the one who's thinking about what am I going to do this week? What am I going to do next week? And in an entrepreneurial venture, especially early on. There's no one else to define that for you. There's no boss to tell you, this is what you got to get done this week. You have to think about in the whole world of possibilities of things to do.
What's most important for me to focus on right now in order to achieve my goal. And I really do strongly believe that my experience in Montessori. Helped instill that mindset, uh, from a really young age.
[00:27:13] Jesse McCarthy: Yeah, I'm really happy you just raised that last point too, I talk about this a lot, but you think about traditional school, which I mean, I definitely went to myself growing up.
You're literally each class. It's like you go here, then bell rings, go to the next class, bell rings, go to the next, like everything set for you. The teacher is giving you the questions like you're not coming up with your own. This is answer these questions. And if you can't figure it out, go to the back of the book.
The answer is always there. There's not a lot of choice. And in Montessori is you're putting that every day. You come in and you got to make a choice and multiple choices. And then when you get to your level in elementary school, yeah, you're, you're coming up with your, your whole plan.
So I, I mean, I think the three to six, you know, you come in and you can choose whatever you'd like and you work on it as you get older and Montessori is, as you know, clearly you got to start making a plan and also your, your, where's your day going to go? Yeah. So, um, I love that it's connected to in business.
You got to make a lot of choices and choices that nobody's ever thought of, particularly as an entrepreneur. And then you've got to direct your day.
[00:28:14] William Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I went to a traditional public high school and so it was an opportunity for me to see after all of this time in Montessori, what everyone else has been doing all these years.
And I think the biggest thing that stood out to me was this concept of multiple choice tests. Um, The idea that all you're doing is selecting from a preset list of options. You're not generating anything yourself. And I do think that creates a lot of complications when you move into the real world where there's, there's not multiple choice, there's infinite choice.
You could choose anything and you need to figure out, okay, what factors do I consider to think about. What I should focus on what I should prioritize what type of choice I should make. And so one of the things that I've recognized, um, is I have a strong ability to make decisions with conviction that are informed.
With what I know and are aware of what I don't know and I'm comfortable to move forward and I've seen that with a lot of my peers who went through more traditional schooling, there can be this difficult transition when you move into a more unstructured workplace postgraduate, um, you know, life in general of.
Well, how do I make these choices when it's not a preset list to choose from? Uh, and so it's just a, a, an adjustment that luckily I didn't have to make. Um, but I think the Montessori method is much more effective at teaching you how to be a. More holistic decision maker rather than I memorized or I figured out how tests work.
And I know that if two of the answers are opposites, it's one of those two answers and I can kill the other two answers. And now I have, you know, by process of elimination, the answer that I need. Yeah.
[00:30:17] Jesse McCarthy: So now just curiosity question. Now coming to your business, which is tutoring. So when people think of tutoring, I think a lot of times people don't think of, Oh, I'm going to help you to really understand something you're excited about.
It's like, I'm going to help you pass this test so you can get into this great high school at this great college. Right. So is that the type of tutoring you guys are doing, or is it a combination? Like, where does that fit?
[00:30:40] William Kelly: So we believe strongly in the power of. Peer learning and relationship based tutoring.
So what we encourage students to engage with is weekly sessions with their tutor throughout the course of the term. And, you know, we've oriented our entire business and pricing model around that to where we're offering to institutions. An unlimited tutoring options so they don't have to worry about how much tutoring people are using at different times or discouraging people from using.
We really want students to engage with their tutor each week because the research shows that if you are engaged with a tutor. Over the course of the time that you are learning something, even when you're not stuck, even when you're not confused, you build a much stronger foundation of knowledge just by the exchange between someone who is a little bit further along than you, who has taken the course, they've done well in the course, they understand the material and you, who's learning it for the first time.
Having that exchange, uh, is really what college was. Created for us opportunity for people to move from learning more through independent study to have, uh, exchanges and conversations and questioning the information that was presented and, um, you know, really engaging with material more fully. So that's what we try to orient towards what we try to educate students on.
There are definitely students who come in and they say. I have a test next week, and I just failed the last quiz, and I really need a lot of help to get there, but what we've found to be really effective in our solution that we have at the university level is we're able to bring those students in who are maybe coming to tutoring for one reason.
Hey, I am in need of help right now. And helping to transition them into a more effective learner by showing them what those valuable, uh, habits are. To engage with a tutor on an ongoing basis. So a little bit of, of both happens, but we're definitely trying to steer people into developing that deeper understanding, not only on the student side, but keeping in mind these tutors are students too.
They're a semester ahead, two semesters ahead of the students that they're tutoring. And so continuing to engage with the prerequisite knowledge helps strengthen their overall. Understanding of their major that they're studying. And that's been time and time again, you know, shared with us by tutors as being the most valuable piece of the experience is developing their, their own skills.
Obviously it's amazing to help someone else. Um, and that's why that's what gravitated me towards tutoring others. When I was in middle school and into high school, I wanted to. Be able to, to help other people. It was kind of instilled in me when I was at Montessori, if I know something, someone else doesn't know it, that doesn't mean they're dumb or, you know, they're worse off than I am.
It just means they don't know it yet. If I know it, I should help them know it. Uh, and so it was kind of a natural progression for me, but getting into it, I really started to recognize the benefit for me of. Oh, I'm tutoring people in pre calc. I'm taking calculus too. It's really helpful that I have a really strong foundation of these pre calculus concepts while I'm learning these advanced concepts in calculus too.
Yeah.
[00:34:15] Jesse McCarthy: So you, you guys must have incredible data on. You know how kids are learning or how they're thinking about things. I'm very curious, you know this in Montessori There's obviously a love of learning like these kids are not doing it because their teacher's going to come up and give them an a plus Or make red marks.
Oh, I'm in fear of my teacher giving me a bad grade. It's I love doing this. So what percentage of what, if you have numbers or thinking about this, given your field, how many students at the college level are taking courses, doing things because they're really interested in what they're learning versus, Oh, I got to get this great degree.
So I could go off and get this great job, but it's not really a kind of a passion. Or how many students are actually taking classes that they're excited about? They deliberately go and take those classes versus. This needs to be checked off for this, sheet that I have a bunch of boxes on, you know, what's your take on that?
Or what have you seen?
[00:35:13] William Kelly: Yeah. So in the industry at large, you know, a lot of the, the research points towards the principal reason that students these days are going to college is to get a job afterwards. And so a lot of people are, are looking at college as a necessary step in the process towards being able to have a.
fulfilling and, uh, you know, lucrative career, uh, in such a fashion, they can live the type of life that they want to live. That said, there, there definitely is a subset of true learners that we get to engage with. And those are the ones who are really. Interested fully in the concepts of the courses that they're taking in the curriculum that they're taking.
The other thing that I'll say is it varies a lot school to school, um, because schools are, are very different in terms of what they require you to take, uh, versus What you can choose to take while you're there and how much of that overlaps with your specific major versus more general education. But, it's definitely a bit of a spread.
I've seen more students leaning towards. I am here at school because I know I need a degree in order to get the type of job that I want. But, um, I'd like to think in some of the data that we have first hand suggests that we're helping to reacquaint people with the love of learning. I always tell people all the time and sometimes they, they joke around with me on it, but people love to learn inherently.
People are taught not to love to learn. Yeah, I agree. But inherently, we all love to learn how to do something new or learn an interesting fact about something. It's when that learning starts to be associated with fear and be associated with, you know, being told what to do and that not aligning with what you want to do, that you start to develop a, you Lack of love for learning.
I'd like to think, and, and as I mentioned, some of the data suggests that we're helping to reacquaint some of these students that learning is fun and these concepts are interesting if they're engaged with in
[00:37:36] Jesse McCarthy: the right way. Yeah, that's great to hear. And I, I mean, I asked that question of you because I'm, I'm all about, I want to go to college to get a job because you, you want to have a job in life, but if the job is not passion focused or excitement focused, or I want to learn more about it.
And it's just that, Oh, I got to get, you know, this job to make X amount of money and do this. And maybe even connected with that, just coming back to the whole concept of going into business or being an entrepreneur.
And obviously there's a huge connection with money. Usually it's thought of as, Oh, you would go into those fields because all you want to do is make money. When, you know, it's been my experience with people in my own life that are entrepreneurs, are business people, um, myself. And then the people I admire somebody like a Steve jobs.
Kind of Jeff Bezos in the early days of Amazon and just really admire these people. Um, they did it because they, they really loved it and the money came because they loved it so much and we're so passionate and they put in the work that they succeeded. So the money was secondary, but I, I'm curious your take on this because there seems to be kind of an anti money thing, but it seems that most people in their lives, Oh, it's nice to have some money.
Like it's nice to eat food that I like. It's nice to take, you know, you, a loved one out to dinner but then when like a business person does it, it's, Oh, well, he's, he's bad. So, um, it's just, I I'm curious your take, cause it just seems so contradictory to our own personal enjoyment of money.
And maybe it's the bad people in the businesses , kind of slanting the general public's view of money and business, but, what, what do you think of that?
[00:39:10] William Kelly: It's a really interesting concept. Um, I think that it's really easy early on to be a fan and be a supporter. And it almost reaches a tipping point where the general public has deemed, okay, we were all on board that this person was creating something new and they were finding some success and they were growing and they were growing.
Until it becomes too big. And then we don't like them anymore. Um, they did too well, they got too far. And I think it's important to remember that a most entrepreneurs, most business people are not Jeff Bezos level of success, but everyone who is Jeff Bezos level of success didn't just. Wake up and get there, you know, if you read the stories and if you, you look at the history, it's almost like if you read the book about Jeff Bezos. Everybody would be on board for chapters, you know, one through five be like, Oh, look at this guy, you know, he's figuring out you can use the internet to make a bookstore. He loves, you know, books.
He's getting them to people at a cheaper level. He's coming up with some really interesting things. Oh, wow. He's expanded beyond books. He's selling other products on the space. He's really pushing the internet. And, you know, e commerce, this whole new, interesting, uh, space forward. And then when you get to chapters 15 through 20, people are kind of like, all right, that's enough.
You know, you already have enough. It's already big enough. You already did enough. You already made enough money. And it's interesting how that turns because those, those early days, that creation, um, and this whole concept of, well, Amazon's killing small business. Amazon was a small business until it became so successful that it became a big business.
And I think it's important to remember that every big business that's out there was once small and it grew and it grew because it was successful and it connected with people and delivered something that people found valuable enough to help propel that engine forward. Uh, and again, it's not to say that.
There are not bad actors out there. There are not negative components of certain entities being so large and carrying so much power. But I think it's important not to demonize the founders and the creators because that wasn't the end goal. Nobody asked Jeff Bezos when he was starting Amazon and he was working, you know, a hundred hours a week and running it out of his own space and working.
On it all the time, it wasn't so that he could be the richest man in the world. You know, he really had a passion for what he was doing. And Steve Jobs is a great example of someone who had a very. Strong passion for the business that he went into and the additional new products that they brought to market.
It was so embedded in the way that, uh, Apple grew over the years. And I do see the irony of us mostly in the U S Apple has pretty strong market share here. We're all using these Apple products. And yet there's this undertone of. Well, you know, Apple's big business and it's bad. But we're all enjoying the spoils of, of the labor that went into, to building this entity.
Yeah.
[00:42:49] Jesse McCarthy: And that's, I mean, it's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on. And as we were talking, um, how it kind of moved towards talking about business and being an entrepreneur and how. Some of the culture is, is anti. And it's, and I'd even go, as far as saying, you're emphasizing the bad actors or the good actors, I think is really healthy.
Cause we're saying, Hey, look at the people here. Um, but I'd go even further and say, even capitalism has this kind of like negative. When you say capitalism in America, or really, I think almost any country you're already, it's like the devil's floating around. And when I think of capitalism at its most basic essence two people.
Freely just deciding I want to trade with the other person. And it's, I think it's become demonized just like business. And because yeah, there's some people doing some crappy things out there in business.
Um, to give an example and it's kind of, you know, really raw but I'm not supporting the local strip club. Like, I don't think that's a great business, um, to have, uh, but that doesn't mean that all business is bad or capitalism is bad because some people choose to do some pretty shady things.
So anyways, I'm, I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this topic because I know it's, it's touchy, and particularly in this field. And I think, you know, kind of maybe one of the big questions I want to ask you is that. Just money as such in Montessori, sometimes it gets equated to kind of like with grades, but we don't have grades, so you really shouldn't be interested in in money.
And I'm curious, given that you didn't, I'm assuming you didn't have grades throughout Montessori or maybe towards the end you did, I don't know. So be curious there. Do you see an equivalent with grades and money or how do you differentiate those two? What's your take there?
[00:44:28] William Kelly: Yeah, that's a really.
Interesting line of questioning there. Um, just for, for clarity sake, I did not have grades at Montessori until I got to middle school, which was seventh grade and eighth grade. And the whole reason they instituted grades and they told us this is, uh, at that time, the school did not have a high school, so they would say it does now have a high school.
Um, they would say, you're going to go to another school. It's going to have grades. We want you to know what that's like before you get there. Um, and so, you know, from three years old through the sixth grade, there was no grading of assignments. There was no worrying about what am I going to get on this quiz or this test.
And I think that is really valuable. It's really valuable to learning. I think a lot of the research suggests that, uh, putting those grades on students at such a young age. can be really demotivating. It helps to create a self image that aligns with those grades, and that can be demotivating for A students as it is for C students.
Um, and what I mean by that is if you have a student who is an A student, they're getting everything right and you just keep telling them they're so smart all the time, then they are demotivated from trying new things where they might not get an A and they might not live up to that self image of being so smart and so good at everything.
And then naturally on the other side of things, if you're identifying as a C student from the age of six, that's really. going to take a toll on your appetite to learn and to engage and to believe that you are capable. I think the, the difference is when you move into being an adult in society, you need money to survive, right?
You can't live without it. Um, and so I think the difference associated with having some sort of reward for your work and your effort is Now you are an adult who has developed this skill set, who has recognized that you don't do the work for the grade. The grade is secondary. That's what I learned anyway.
When I moved into high school and into college, obviously everything's graded. You have to get certain grades, otherwise you don't graduate, you don't get a degree. But I had had enough time where learning was not about grades. That I recognized if I learn, I'll get good grades if I don't, I won't, but I didn't learn for the grade and in the same way, I think if you create value, especially in an entrepreneurial venture, ideally, there will be some capture of that value, but the concept of creating value and capturing it.
Are very different. If you think about a painter, um, you know, they are creating value by making a beautiful piece. They could not sell it or they could sell it. We're not going to demonize them for selling it, um, for capturing some value for their work and their effort that they put in. And so I view that very similarly in business.
If you are creating something of value, you're putting that out into the world. And you're receiving some sort of monetary reward as a result of capturing that value. That helps to be a motivating factor to go out and create more value in the world. And I think that's really the difference on the grade side of things is it.
I don't really see anyone getting the right type of motivation from a grade motivates you to take shortcuts. Motivates you to, uh, you know, make sure you can just get by, but with entrepreneurship, the financial motivation, which ideally and typically does come secondary to the intrinsic motivation to do something of meaning, do something that you love to do, do something that you believe in.
That secondary extrinsic motivation of having a financial incentive just helps motivate you to put in that extra hour, put in those hundred hour weeks that are needed from time to time to get something off the ground. And, I really do believe that it's a valuable component of the experience.
And, um, you know, helps keep people engaged for long enough and resilient for long enough that at some point in the future, there will be a reward though for the first several years of it. Uh, that's the other irony in the space of entrepreneurship. Oh, everyone gets into that cause they just want to be super rich, super well off.
You ask anybody who started. Any business from scratch the first several years, tough going. Um, so it's, it's making that sacrifice early on so that later on, there's an opportunity for an even greater reward. And I think that that's a really valuable incentive associated with, uh, you know, capitalism. And I think it's interesting, the demonization of capitalism as a concept, uh, because at its core, it's an space of choice, as you alluded to.
It's the theory is everybody has the free will to make decisions. for themselves to engage with one another. And, you know, at its core, there's nothing inherently wrong about that, but naturally people can make bad choices. People can choose to do bad things to other people, but they can do that in any type of economic system.
That's just. Human human nature and free will
I appreciate that perspective. And I think. We all kind of know if we do love doing some work, but somebody offers us an extra hundred dollars randomly to do, 30 more minutes of it.
[00:50:54] Jesse McCarthy: Most of us are all doing 30 minutes, you know, because you want, you know, because you're thinking of the things you can do with that money, but the moment when it becomes. You know, here's a hundred dollars, go do something vicious or go do something you think is bad, then it's, as you just said, it's, it's a choice.
We all have free will. So I like, I like you raising that. Now, is there, I know you're specifically in tech. And we talked a little bit about it. Sounds like you're completely off social media, which is fascinating. Is there anything just briefly, I know parents out there are just crazed about iPhones, computers.
My child's scrolling all day long. Probably the parents are scrolling all day long. It's tough to get off of it. Any thoughts on that, given that it's your field Ed tech, you know, technology generally.
[00:51:38] William Kelly: Yeah. I think that at its core technology is most helpful as a means to augment what we are able to do without it.
Right. So if you look at knack, you know, my company, for example. Our technology exists as a mechanism to connect students and tutors more effectively with one another, but the core of what we're helping to deliver is a human to human experience, right? So the, the tech serves as a layer, as a mechanism, as a vehicle, but the core is.
Entirely human to human. Um, and I think that there are a lot of, uh, mechanisms out there in the technology space and education technology space in particular, where you can use it as an effective vehicle for delivery of information for connecting students with one another, but it's important to always recognize that it doesn't serve as a replacement.
It serves as a supplement. It serves as a conduit and a replacement. If leveraged the right way, it can be incredibly impactful in a positive way. As I alluded to not being on social media, there are definitely a lot of, of downsides associated with using technology in the wrong way. But as with anything else, I think it's about.
Making the right choices and modeling the right behavior so that kids can start to develop their own boundaries around. Yeah, I don't want to just sit around scrolling all day. I don't see value in doing that, but if I'm going to look at, you know, a couple of posts and see what my friends are up to and then get off my phone for a while and go engage with those friends in person, um, that, and it can be really valuable.
So I think it's easy to just. Throw it in that one category as we talked to, talked about earlier, throw it in the bad category, social media is bad, um, but it's much more nuanced than that, it's, it's how you engage, it has the potential to have negative, it has the potential to have positive impacts, it really depends on your relationship with it.
[00:53:58] Jesse McCarthy: That's awesome. Thinking about what you're saying, I have a question overall, given I'm sure they're going to be parents on here just wanting their children to grow up and be confident and be successful. Given that you went through Montessori, for so many years, you're successful in business. You've got a good head on your shoulder. You can communicate pretty well. When you were starting out as an entrepreneur in your work, did you have self doubt or was it kind of like, well, you know, I'm going to fall down.
I get back up. Did, did anything creep in and be like, I don't know if I can do this.
[00:54:32] William Kelly: It would be easy to say that I've, I never doubted it, you know, along the way, but I think it's natural to, to have those moments where you really sit down and reflect after a tough week, uh, this strategy didn't work. We're not finding any traction.
Oh, we're running out of money. We need to figure out something to do. And you think, you know, is, did I make the right choice? Am I doing what I should be doing? Um, but what I've found in those moments is at least in my experience, being able to take a second, step back, reflect. And say, why am I doing this in the first place?
You know, why am I here? What is it about? And for me, I've got a really great connection to what we're trying to do as a company for my own personal experience, spending a lot of time tutoring. And so that always kind of grounds me. And then secondary to that, looking at, you know, am I capable of doing this?
And just my mantra in life in general, and I'm a big fan of, uh, the growth mindset is anyone is, is capable of doing anything. Uh, it just depends on how long it might take you, how many times you have to try. But if you try for long enough and you really give your all to it, you are capable of doing what anyone else is capable of doing.
Um, and so that, really helps. Reorient me and bring me back. Early on, it was definitely a lot more prevalent of that. And, you know, over the years, I think it just comes with, with growing up as well. When I came on full time with the company, I was 19 years old, you know, first time I was leaving my hometown, just graduated from college.
You know, I decided to graduate quickly. I graduated in two years. So it was a lot of like, should I have stayed longer? And I could have gotten like a second major. I could have done another thing. Um, you know, did I make the right choice to move away from my family and friends and everyone I know to go do this knack thing?
Is it really worth it? And ultimately in each of those moments, I came to the renewed and stronger realization that it was worth it. And that what we're doing is meaningful enough and I am passionate about it. And I really believe in it. And so even if. We don't make it to the end of that year. We don't go any further than we've already gone just the impact we're having right now at that level of small scale is meaningful and is worth doing.
It's, it's an interesting kind of reframe that I've had for myself of. It's worth trying if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, but it's worth giving my all to see if we can make it work. And, you know, over the years we've been able to find more success and reach more students and reach more schools and drive more of an impact.
And so it really has started to pay off in that regard. Um, but early on, it's, you definitely have those days where you're wondering, you know, did I make the right choice?
[00:57:48] Jesse McCarthy: I really appreciate you giving insight into, the psychology of it as well. I almost feel like, oh man, that was a little personal question.
So I apologize for throwing that one at you, but I I'm sure a lot of people will appreciate getting some of that insight as well. So, and overall, just thank you much.
Anything you want to say before we hop off? You think we got everything?
[00:58:07] William Kelly: Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate the time. As always, Jesse, I appreciate what you're doing to drive more awareness for Montessori and help people really understand what it is. I think whenever I tell people I went to Montessori school, they have like a vague understanding of, Oh yeah, you know, I know a little bit about that.
But when I'm able to, to help them really understand what's involved without fail, every single one of them at the end says. I wish I would've gone to a Montessori school, so, you know, I think that the work that you're doing is, is really meaningful and I appreciate you having me back on. I hope that in sharing my story, it's, it's motivating for, uh, parents.
It's interesting for any students who might hear it as well, because I really do believe that entrepreneurship can be a very valuable. Vector through which to drive meaningful impact in the world. And I believe, you know, anyone who has the passion, who has the desire, who's willing to put in the work can be successful in that regard.
It's not a given that you will be successful, but that's, you know, the only way that that failure is finite is if you don't. Keep trying. So I think that's really the most important thing that I would want to close with.
[00:59:22] Jesse McCarthy: Thanks. Again, thank you much for coming on , it's, it's always a pleasure chatting with you, man. Likewise. Coming out of my conversation with Will, I want to add three things.
First, everything that Will and I said in our conversation is our own unique interpretation of things. I mean, and that's including what Will says isn't necessarily what I believe, what I believe isn't necessarily what Will believes, uh, and I'm noting this because, you know, Maria Montessori is a huge hero of mine, but I would never, ever try to speak for her.
You know, that's, I did actually literally speak for her in an interview with Maria Montessori. Uh, if you haven't heard that, Google it. Uh, I, I love that one. But the broader note here is like, there's all sorts of contentious issues today and making money seems to be one of them. I don't want to speak for Maria Montessori about that.
And I don't want to speak for Maria Montessori on any issue. This is the Montessori education podcast. With Jesse McCarthy, so that's just a side note second note. I want to get you Will's official bio which I think I promised in the beginning. So here we go William kelly is an entrepreneur and business consultant located in tampa florida after graduating from the pool college of management at north carolina state university As valedictorian and only in two years at age 19, uh, Will moved to the sunshine state of Florida, specifically Tampa again, to join a pre seed startup with very little revenue as the first external hire.
A few years and several millions of dollars in revenue later, Will serves as the chief operating officer for Knack Technologies. In his work with Knack, Will is focused on ensuring that. Every student has access to the benefits of peer to peer learning. As a lifelong tutor himself and proud alumnus of the Montessori School of Raleigh, this mission is greatly aligned with Will's belief that anyone can become whatever they set out to be as long as they are willing to work.
Will is also the co founder and CEO of ThinkFast Games, which recently launched their first game, DotDuel. Alright, that's Will everyone, and actually that do Duall. Let me, yeah. Dot dash duall. DUE l.com is the site for, that game that he just released, which is pretty cool. I, I'll put the link on the site page as well.
Third note. So that's it on Will. And then of, of course, again, will thank you much for coming on. It's always a pleasure speaking with you. Uh, third and final note is those personal items I was telling you about. So just. Family wise, I'm having a blast with my son, Ragnar, who is now almost, oh no, he just turned 22 months old.
So it's, it's wild. It's flying. Uh, as those of you with children know, it's, it's insane. Uh, definitely changes my free time though. So I'm having a blast, but man, time is tight. Uh, so, which is why I'm not kind of. Posting a podcast quite as regularly as before. So hopefully you forgive me for that I was able to finally share the full talk of my keynote in Dubai though A big thanks to redwood center of excellence.
That's the school that had me out there Just a gorgeous place and there is a wonderful woman named Geraldine helping to run the larger operations there I will put a link to the talk on the episode page But you can also just search montessori in dubai on google or you know, literally in I'm guessing it will come up.
Super quality talk, video. I hope you enjoy it. It was just such a good time. I also did another parent talk a couple weekends ago. This one was outside of DC at Renaissance Montessori School in Virginia. It was snowing while there, so props to all the parents who came out and packed that place. And it, I mean, it was something else just, Overall, as I stayed well into the night to answer parent questions that they just kept coming.
I mean, we were there, I think the talk was 45 minutes and the parent Q& A was near an hour and a half long. It was nuts. It was such a good time. Thank you again to the great team out there at Renaissance, especially to Christina and Becky, uh, who are leading that school. And that's just a quick update on speaking.
Um, what else I got for you guys? Oh yeah, La Casa, you know, a little schoolhouse that my wife and I have here in South Florida. It's rocking. Uh, we just got just a great group of children, great group of parents, just the community is really, really lovely. So I'm feeling super grateful over here and kind of happy where we're at, you know.
I'd say the only thing I want right now is a little more time in life. So, if any of you relate with that, and if any of you have a solution reach out. Let me know. I hope everyone is rocking out there in your own way. Please share a story. So if you're a parent at home and have a story you want to share, good or bad, I don't care, or in the classroom.
Write me. I mean, I really love hearing from you guys. So so again send my way. As always if you enjoyed this episode or any of the others share share share, please. And leave comments reviews, you know all that good stuff as always. I think that's it. So looking forward to next time with you and adios for now