As a teacher, what to do with a boy who’s cussing in the classroom?
Sandra Girlato’s got a funny and super insightful story on that.
As a parent, what to do with a child who won’t put on her shoes before leaving the house? Sandra got a story on that, too.
How to get children to eat any kind of food? She's got one on that.
How to help children care for others — genuinely, without lectures? She has a story around that, too.
If you don’t know Sandra Girlato — mom; grandma; Montessori teacher; Director of Training at Canada’s Foundation for Montessori Education, the organization founded by the late Renilde Montessori, Maria Montessori’s youngest granddaughter — then it’s time to get to know her.
Or at least to hear some of her awesomely insightful, and sometimes hilarious stories from over the last 30+ years of work with children.
To reach Sandra, visit her at montessori-ami.ca.
TO HEAR OTHER EPISODES OF THE MONTESSORI EDUCATION PODCAST, VISIT HERE.
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About Jesse McCarthy
For over 20 years, Jesse McCarthy has worked with thousands of children, parents, teachers and administrators — as a principal for infants to 8th graders, an executive with a nationwide group of private schools, an elementary & junior-high teacher, and a parent-and-teacher mentor.
Jesse received his B.A. in psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) and his Montessori teacher's diploma for ages 2.5 to 6+ from Association Montessori Internationale (AMI), the organization founded by Dr. Maria Montessori.
Jesse has spoken on education, parenting and child development around the globe, from Midwest America to the Middle East, as well as at popular organizations in and outside of the Montessori community: from AMI/USA and AMI/Canada to old-school Twitter. Jesse now lives with his family in South Florida where he heads MontessoriEducation.com and, alongside his wife (and young son), runs La Casa, The Schoolhouse.
Transcript: The Swearing Boy, and Other Stories with Sandra Girlato
Jesse McCarthy | 00:03
The educator Dr. Maria Montessori once said.
Maria Montessori | 00:07
The child developing harmoniously and the adult improving himself at his side make a very exciting and attractive picture.
Jesse McCarthy | 00:16
Welcome to Montessori Education with me, Jesse McCarthy, where we talk raising children and educating students while bettering ourselves right alongside them.
Sandra Girlato | 00:27
A little discomfort is a great teaching moment. You know, getting run over by a car is.
Jesse McCarthy | 00:33
Not a good teaching moment. That was Sandra Girolato, who I'll talk about in a minute. And she was getting at the idea of allowing children to have a little bit more discomfort, to experience that feeling of discomfort. Not the run in the street and get run over type of discomfort. That is not what we want as parents or teachers. But that kind of discomfort where they got to figure things out. They go, this doesn't feel right. What do I do? This doesn't fit. What do? I spilled some water on the floor. What do I do versus somebody outside here? I'm in and going, I can help you. I can do that for you. Don't do it that way. I know the right way. Would you get your shoes on already?
You know the stuff. Anyway, so this episode is going to be a lot more positive than I'm putting it because I'm putting it almost like the negative here. Sandra is awesome. Is a joy to be around. She is a mom, a grandma, old school Montessori, and she's been in for over 30 years, teacher trainer. She was actually trained herself by Renilde Montessori, who is Maria Montessori's granddaughter, youngest granddaughter, if you don't know. And Renilde personally handed down her foundation's role of director of training to Sandra.
So Sandra is pretty badass. And she's such a sweet woman. You'll see. She's got amazing stories. She helps so many teachers, so many parents, so many children out there. I hope you enjoy and let's get to it. Sandra Girolato, thank you again for coming on the show your second time. Happy to have you here.
Sandra Girlato | 02:11
Thank you. Thank you to be here, Jesse. Always a nice conversation with you.
Jesse McCarthy | 02:15
Thank you. So let's jump into some stories.
So just hop in. What's a big story that jumps to mind that you're excited to tell us or share with us?
Sandra Girlato | 02:27
And working with children, there's so many stories, Jesse, it's unbelievable how much children leave a mark on your life and, you know, honored and really privileged to be with children. I can honestly say I've learned a lot more for children than I think I probably gave to them. And all those children that were challenges have always made me a better teacher and ultimately a better trainer.
So let's begin with one I think that will be very pertinent, because we all experience this. I'm a mom and a grandma now.
So you know, I can relate to this, but I remember one mom telling me that she was having a hard time getting her child out the door in the morning. And, you know, all the emotions that go along with that, you know, they have a limited amount of time, they have to drive to school, he's got to get into the car, he's having a big fussy moment because it's raining outside and she wants him to put on his rain boots and he's resisting, he doesn't want to do that, he doesn't want anything, any footwear.
So. She said, "What do I do? What do I do? This happens often. What do I do?" And so I gave her some advice. And so she took the advice and here it goes.
So she said to him one morning, okay, let's go. You got to put on your boots. Same thing. I'm not putting on my boots. I'm not putting on my shoes.
So she said to me, I heard you in my head, Sandra. So I said, Okay, you know what you do, you can walk to the car and your socks, but we'll take your boots with you in case you might need them later on. And so she said, I took his boots. He walked to the car. He got up into his car seat. His feet are soaking wet at this point. She said, I felt like the most horrible human being in the entire universe. And we're halfway to school and he's sitting in his car seat. I could see him through the rear view mirror. And he says, mommy, My feet are wet. My feet are wet.
So she said, I had to. Bite my tongue because I want to say, well, I told you so if you put on. But she said, I heard you on my tongue. And I said, yes. Okay, well, you know what? Your feet are wet. What do you think we might be able to do next time? And so he got to school. And you know Montessori school so it was fabulous he had a change of clothes there he got there. Instead of his wet socks, he dried his feet. He put on his dry socks and his running shoes. And she said to me, Absolutely. The day following that moment, he always put on shoes to go out. And this is it for us. We know we have the experience with what weather is, what it's going to be like outside, what are the consequences of our actions. These little children are still developing that.
So we have an expectation sometimes that they are going to think like us and understand like us. But we didn't get here in a second. It took us a long time to understand All three. Of the consequences of our decisions. But by that month, they're allowing that little guy to have this moment. Hey. Had a very sensorial real experience which informed his next and the future of that book. If she had... Wrestled him down, shoved on his shoes. It wouldn't have been a good day for either one of them. And he would not have had the experience necessary for him to grow from that moment.
So it was tough. It wasn't an easy thing for her to do. Because we're all out there trying to be good parents. For her to let her child walk outside with just socks on. But it was the most important thing for him and the most important thing for that connection. Because he not only knew about the weather at that moment and how to dress maybe for the next day, but he.. Developed a real trust in his mom that his mom... Listen to him, heard him.
Yeah. That's what we want with our children. That really rests with me as a grandma now again, because I'm so many years away from raising a young child.
You know, because I don't want him to be hurt. None of us want our children to be hurt. None of us want our children to feel pain or feel discomfort. But sometimes Things that are not so detrimental. Who cares? A little wet feet for... Second, he got to school, he changed into dry socks and shoes. Perfect.
So these are the things that we really need to pay attention to. Yeah.
Jesse McCarthy | 06:55
So I'm so happy we're doing these stories. So I'm like jotting down notes because there's like one story, so much can come from it.
So just a few things. One is- immediately it jumps to a quote of mine is like dependency breeds hostility and So there's a man named Haim Ganat who said that. And I think with Montessori, like as parents, we see this, like children want to do their own things. But the point that I think you're raising, I want to maybe talk about this, is that firsthand experience is how us human beings really learn. Now, we can learn from other people, we can learn from books, and it's fantastic knowledge. But at the end of the day, if there's somebody in between us and the world.
Like there's this person saying, this is what the world's like. It's going to create all sorts of problems and it seems like this is what you're saying like he experienced the wet feet you can tell him all your feet are going to get wet it's not good for you to have, but the moment he experiences like. This is what happens, right?
Sandra Girlato | 08:00
No, it is so important, Jesse, because the way us... As human beings are created is through experience. Experience then creates a way to think about our world. And every time we block that experience from a child, it's in a way we're robbing the child. We're taking away from the child. And Again, now we have to put that into a box and think, do I want to rob from my child? I don't.
Yeah. And if we create that dependency where I have to tell them how to dress or what to eat or what to do, then I better be immortal. I better live forever because that child is going to create themselves based on I have to rely on this person, my mom or my dad. Because I don't know.
Jesse McCarthy | 08:45
- Yeah.
Sandra Girlato | 08:46
This little guy figured it out for himself. And that she had enough discipline to say, to not say, I told you so. That's a reaction to have.
Jesse McCarthy | 08:59
Right? With that.
So I want to talk about that too, because that's another note. There's some element of like justice or I want to, you know, I told you so. I want, I want.
Sandra Girlato | 09:08
Want, I.
Jesse McCarthy | 09:09
Yeah. And as a parent, like, listen, I'm deep Montessori, I'm deep child, all of that. But there's these elements when you almost treat them as like, they're this adult who did something stupid or did something wrong. And you want them to like fess up. Don't you see?
So what do you think is going on with that? And how do you combat that?
Cause I'm sure you've experienced that. We've all, so what's, What do you do? What's going on?
Sandra Girlato | 09:35
I'm not a psychologist, but what I would say to you, I think it's a human. A human reaction. Because that's how we kind of relate in our everyday life to other adults. And what's the thing about little children is oftentimes They are like little adults.
You know, and, you know, they walk like us, they, I mean, eventually, they walk like us, they talk like us, they look like us. So we put on all these expectations at times, and then at other times, not have any expectations. And I think that moment of, I told you so, is putting on that adult expectation that we would put on our partner or our employer or whatnot. And it's hard for us as adults because we have this kind of feeling of omnipotence. I'm all knowing I'm all powerful, not to say I told you so. But if we can hold ourselves, if we can control that emotion, and that's why sometimes I say, you know, children have taught me more than I'm ever going to be able to teach them because I think that humility, that to be humble in the heart around children, And give them the space to grow that intelligence without us thinking that we're better than them or more intelligent than them. Is important, really important.
Jesse McCarthy | 11:02
Yeah, I mean, there's an element because I, you know, this idea of being humble, which I definitely around the child, you learn, like, I've got a lot to learn. There's always something to learn. But I found it that it's almost like you're being more objective, you yourself as an adult are starting to see the world more clearly, because the fact that I want. This child to put on his boots when he walks out the door, and he doesn't know yet. That's really not being objective about the world like he doesn't know why is he just, do you want him, always listening to you as an adult like it. We don't want children to turn into young adults, young women, young men who just listen to somebody telling them what to do. But how do you... How would you then balance that with, Well, there are times when like your child wants to run across the street and clearly if they don't listen to you, something very bad can happen.
So how do you answer that kind of question? You know, concerned.
Well.
Sandra Girlato | 12:04
There's a couple of things here in your question, Jesse, I think that we have to address. One is I think we have to understand that children are developing their own self-discipline. Their own level of self-control. And if we look at the etymology of discipline, it comes from disciple.
So, to follow, right? To follow a rule, to follow social norms.
Right? That's what it means to be a disciplined human being. But the problem is if, We are the... The ones that discipline our child or control our children. Then the child will learn how to be controlled by others. And so then we really have to pray that our child always comes into contact with good human beings. But if their modus operandi in this world is to be controlled my goodness, right?
So they're going to, follow who's ever leading. And we know there's good leaders and bad leaders. I want my child, I want my grandson as an example, To. Be a critical thinker, someone who can assess, Think about the world.
And then take their action. Not someone who just says, they're telling me what to do. I have to follow them blindly. That's what we get into a lot of problems. And, We can't do that. And I think the other part of your question is, you know, there are moments when we have to say absolutely not, no. That's totally fine.
You know, you will not find in Dr. Montessori's writing where she says to you can't say no. But... I think those are fewer than moments than what we think they are. They tend to be those moments when it's a question of safety.
You know, you have a little three-year-old, they still don't have enough life experience to not run into the street. And you can't say like in this mom's case, hey, walk to the car with your little socks on, right?
I mean, that's a safe thing. Child's not going to die from wet feet. The child's not going to get hurt from wet feet. The child's going to have a little discomfort. A little discomfort is a great teaching moment.
You know, getting run over by a car is So, you know, just Check yourself.
Jesse McCarthy | 14:21
Not a good teaching moment.
Sandra Girlato | 14:27
You know, in your home, in your environments, make sure it's as safe as possible so that they can experience. Good and bad. Hard and easy. But it's not detrimental to them.
Yeah. Those other things, you know, I want to stick a knife in my eye. That's absolutely no, that's a no. There's no we'll talk about later.
Jesse McCarthy | 14:50
High-tech experience that There does seem to be at a certain point, like children have a, There's a natural guard against doing outrageous things to themselves, generally, but I'm with you like, because generally a child's not going to stab himself with a knife in the eye, but we, but if he has a knife at one year old doesn't know how to use it, he might, you know, so. Yeah.
Sandra Girlato | 15:16
So maybe we would give him a different tool instead of a knife. You know, he wants to cut. Cut up his food or do something with his food.
Well, let's not give him the sharp steak knife. Let's give him something that's, you know, still can cut, but is it as fatal?
Jesse McCarthy | 15:30
Yeah. And so maybe that fear of harm or that fear of potential death, like the fear has gotten, it's moved over into all sorts of aspects that aren't necessarily, I mean, we're being extreme here, but death or very serious injury, it's moved into, I don't want him to have something too spicy.
You know, like, so it becomes like the concern for your child is no longer just serious safety things. It's like, well, I don't want them to feel bad if somebody says they don't want to play with them, you know, so it becomes... More I've got to protect this child from, A bad world or something like that.
Sandra Girlato | 16:11
And it's not going to work. It will not work. You're going to disable your child by doing that.
So I have a little grandson who's 18 months. Who eats absolutely everything. Everything spice, not spice, sweet, not sweet. And the reason for that is because his parents allow him to taste anything and everything. And, you know, so he gets a spicy something. Usually just water.
Jesse McCarthy | 16:37
Grab some.
Sandra Girlato | 16:39
Okay. And then you'll choose not to have that again at the dinner table. But it's not the worst thing that can happen. We have to really have empathy for parents. Most parents, I think, are doing the best possible job they can You know, I have a lot of respect for parents. I always have had. It's the most difficult job in the entire universe to be a parent because you're getting lots of mixed messages.
You know, you're constantly being told you're doing the wrong thing. But most parents are doing a really good job. They just sometimes have to reframe their thinking just a little wee bit.
Jesse McCarthy | 17:16
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm currently a parent myself. Ragnar's almost three years old. And I mean, just to piggyback, the spice thing's a great example, I think, on your, because this is not a one-off, like same with Ragnar. He'll try everything. And if it is, ends up being spicy. I try not to now be like, I think this is spicy. I don't want him to want to say it. Let him decide.
And then if it's spicy, you're like. Let me get some water. And the funny thing is, and I'm sure I don't, I shouldn't say I'm sure, but I like this.
Sometimes I will eat, I love spicy foods and sometimes I'll eat some that is super spicy, but it's so tasty that, you know, you're eating it and then you go get some more water. And now he, if he really likes the taste, even if it's spicy, he might eat it.
And then, okay, I need some more water or he makes the gesture, but I'm not protecting him from spice, you.
Sandra Girlato | 18:04
Know? Exactly. Exactly. They make their own accommodations, Jesse, absolutely. And I think the other thing that you just said so important is you don't give your opinion on it before you give it to them. Because if you say, that's spicy or that tastes like this or, you know, that's smelly or whatever, then already you're giving him an impression. Let him have his own impression. Let him have his own impressions.
Jesse McCarthy | 18:29
Yeah. I don't know if I ever told you, Senator, but the analogy with Montessori, what I think one of the main geniuses of Montessori was that she took away the middleman between the child and the world or the child and reality.
So it's kind of like the Protestant Reformation when they were like, you know, there's everybody, there's only certain people that could look at the Bible, whether you're religious or not religious, not an issue of believing in God or not. But...
And then there was this reformation that said, or this revolution that said, no, you can learn of the Bible for yourself. Whether that's historically accurate, what happened back then, but somebody said, no, you can read this book for yourself.
I mean, that was huge in history, the idea that you didn't need somebody to read it for you. So I think of Montessori as kind of like, One step further, it's like there's the world out there. Usually everybody has to tell you what the world's about. But Montessori said, no. We can guide you. We can aid you, but you are in contact with the real world. I just think that's been helpful for me as an analogy, even with parents. We are not the person in between the child and the world. We are just, we're beside him as he's. Exploring the world.
Yeah.
Sandra Girlato | 19:41
Absolutely. Excellent. We collaborate with the child. We don't.
You know, we don't tell the child. And that's a beautiful thing to say, because quite frankly, If we are that gatekeeper to the information, And if this is it, this isn't good enough. Do you know what I mean? It's like, yeah. This is all they're going to get is meat. And what I know of the world... We're never going to see the new inventions. We're not going to see the new creations. We're not going to see all the new geniuses. We're not going to see all the new beautiful people because we're just creating paper cutouts of something that's quite stale, to be honest.
Yeah. You know, let's experience and watch. The birth of creation in its fullest possibility.
Jesse McCarthy | 20:25
Yep. Awesome.
So see, it's amazing. We get one example and all this comes out of it. It's pretty wild.
So I'm ready. What's another story you got from your.
Sandra Girlato | 20:35
Decade? Gosh, there are so many. I had a little guy. I was observing in a classroom, beautiful Montessori classroom.
So I'm sitting there like a good observer, very quiet, just watching, which is very important. And I had this little... Bye-bye. Not quite four, I'm going to say, come up to me.
So I was sitting, so he was literally this height to my ear and he says to me, want a Slack? I think he was having an ear infection, so he had to shout louder, right? Right into my ear. Want a Slack? And so I turned around, I was quite startled and I said, you know, because if a child offers, do you always say yes? And I said, Okay, thank you. What do you want? And I said, I don't know. What do you have? And he said, we have muffins. And I said, okay, I'll take a muffin. Right. And he says, what kind? Right. And I said, What kind do you have?
So he told me he had bran muffin and he had a blueberry muffin and shouting all the time. And I told him the kind of muffin.
So he went off. And I kind of forgot for just a minute. I thought, where's that little guy with my muffin? Now it's getting a little bit peckish, right? And I look over and he's making the muffin. Wow. From scratch, Jesse. Wow. Under for making the muffins, you know, he's beating it. I can see him pour it into the muffin tin. Amazing. Putting it into the little toaster oven.
So he gets that done. He comes back, no muffin because it's baking. Want a drink? And I said, sure. What do you want? And I said, I don't know what do you have?
Right? So some choices, and I chose orange juice.
So off goes. Peace. - Squeezing the orange, licking the orange, squeezing the orange, licking the orange. I'm gonna die. I'm gonna have every drug this old guy has.
So he comes over to me. He's brought me now the muffin that he's. Taken out of the toaster oven. Put onto a lovely plate with a little beautiful glass of orange juice. Man. Gives it to me, puts it on a little table. I'm going to put it here. Okay. And I said, okay. He was darling. Right. And of course then you had to stand there and watch him eat it.
Cause that's what children do when they give you food. You know, I had to eat it, you know, while he watched me.
And then he took it away. He cleaned it all up. This is an under four. And again, if we learn anything from that is how capable. No one had told me to offer me a Slack. No one told him how to make it. No one told him that it needed to be tidied up after I'd had it. This was all within him. At under four. Adults couldn't do that, Jesse. Adults couldn't. Have that complete cycle of activity.
Jesse McCarthy | 23:24
Yeah. Yeah. And that's the, I mean, what's that cycle in modern language is what executive functioning, as they would say. Right.
Sandra Girlato | 23:36
Yes, that our little guys don't have yet. Their brain is not yet quite that developed, but this is the this foundation for that to really fully Loom, right? And here at home, we're not letting them do those won't know how and they're going to hurt themselves.
Jesse McCarthy | 23:49
Things. They Yeah. And there's definitely an idea that just when children, when you send them to quote school, you're not sending them there to cook. You're not sending them there to clean. You're sending them there to do. Academics.
So I think that whole idea that what you gain from that process that child went through, it's so much deeper. I mean, it could, you could do the similar things in academics actually with that type of depth, but the idea that he's knowing where things come from muffins don't just appear out of nowhere.
You know, like that alone is enormous.
Sandra Girlato | 24:31
Yes. And we have to understand, Jesse, as adults, that is... The academics of a young child. Because this child had to have a beginning to that process, a middle... Part of it and an end there's logical sequence there's Pause and effect. What comes first? What comes second?
You know, carrying things across the room, controlling the body, controlling the mind, relating to an adult. He doesn't know me. I'm not his teacher. I'm not his student. I'm a complete stranger. That ease of approaching me and being able to say, you know, would you like something, you know, and being able to. Follow through.
I mean, the patience that it took for him to wait for that muffin to cook. To bring it to me.
I mean.
Jesse McCarthy | 25:22
Yeah, no, it's huge. And one thing that jumps out to me is I know this idea with Young Cho, this happens, I mean, I'm not going to get political in any way, but on either side in America, the idea is like, we need to tell the schools what they need to teach or not teach. It's this content. And it's not like with these muffins, I was just thinking about like, there's this idea that, let's say, be kind.
You know this messaging about be kind and it seems like, this is great. I want children to be kind, but you have lectures, you have stickers, but what that child was actually, quote, being kind, but he had all these skills. He had all this knowledge to actually do something that's kind versus just an adult talking to him about it. There's so much is within that muffin. It's crazy, you know?
Sandra Girlato | 26:13
So absolutely right. We are really confused. I'm going to share just a little story from my growing up. And my dad would say to me, you know, you have to be a good person, right?
You know, so when I was a little bit older. And he says, because What He said, in my lifetime, I find that people can behave badly and then they just say, sorry. And that's to fix everything. Don't get to the story part.
Jesse McCarthy | 26:45
Yeah, just don't do it.
Sandra Girlato | 26:46
Begin with, right? Because that's when you're really thinking about the other person. Not when you've hurt somebody or you are unkind to somebody and then you say, gee, I'm so sorry.
Jesse McCarthy | 26:57
Yeah. And you see this in kids.
You see this in kids because then they will, they feel comfortable hitting another child because they know, well, I'll just say sorry after. It's.
Sandra Girlato | 27:07
My get out of jail card free, right? I just do this and I'm done, right? But this will, again, you're right. That's the level of socialization for an under three, an under four year old child, excuse me. Level of socialization.
Yeah. - Graciousness. Courtesy, waiting for me to eat it so he could tidy up because I had my book for writing my notes that I had to put back on that little table that he'd used for... The setting down the muffin and the orange juice.
Yeah.
Jesse McCarthy | 27:38
- No, and so I wanna, this isn't really pushback, but just kind of getting into the, I don't know, you wanna say like the ingredients of that muffin that's being built. There was somebody modeling some of that beforehand. There was somebody showing him the steps.
So although he took it upon himself, we don't wanna, it's not like, he just all of a sudden knew how to make muffins out of nowhere. And to ask you, 'cause I'm just, they absorb so much of us as their parents, as their teachers. If the teacher was presented, now we're going to make muffins because you need to help like, How do you see the back end of that before the child offered it to you?
Like, what do you think is going on?
Sandra Girlato | 28:22
So that's an excellent question because we're seeing the result. Of much work on the part of that little boy. And his collaborative work with this guide and probably with his assistant.
So the guide showed him, the teacher, the guide showed him how to do that initially, how to make a muffin, how to squeeze an orange. So that He was able to practice those things before he needed them.
And then. She saw the moment of need. And he was able to go off and spontaneously respond to something he felt inside. We have a guest. I guess needs a refreshment. I know what to do about it. Wow, the level of confidence, Jessie, right there to say, I see something. In my world and I can respond and I can be an effective, contributing member of this little societal group. It's a lot of the back work in Montessori. We don't show things to children because They... It's a final product that we're looking at it. We're looking at showing things to children to meet their developmental needs.
So this child needs to use their hands. This child needs to use their brain. This child needs to use their body. Let's give them things that help. Ultimately will be effective in their adaptation to our world. It's not just my gosh, I'm going to put This sponge in this hole, this sponge in this hole. For what purpose? I'm going to do something where I can mix I can stir, I can pour, I can... Open a toaster oven put it in I have my little oven mitts on I put it in I close it so he's learned to activities and practice activities that are useful to his development, but useful in his being part of our world. And if you see a lot of things that are created for children, you know, they're short-lived.
Jesse McCarthy | 30:24
No, they're separate from.
Sandra Girlato | 30:29
This moment and only they help their hands. Great. Okay. They help their hands at this moment, but that is not going to grow with them.
Jesse McCarthy | 30:38
And they seem, as you said, because they seem detached from actual real world living. So a lot of these shows today, even for kids that are very popular or like they're just talking animals, weird stuff. And it's like has nothing to do with a child actually learning skills or being. Effective in the real world like this boy.
I mean, you talk about these skills of even making this little muffin at that age. You kind of got at that. It's not only the muff. He's able to effectively, but now he's got this feeling that my God, I can do this. I don't need somebody else to do this for me.
Sandra Girlato | 31:17
And that's so, at under six, it's so important because you know, I'm sure that your viewers will, some of them will be very confident and some of them will not be confident. That's just us as adults. You can't buy confidence when you're 20, 30, 40, 50, 60. People go to their graves never being confident because confidence is something that's going to be developed under six. It's a way of being in this world. Interesting. We don't get confidence by someone telling us how great we are. We get confidence by us telling ourselves, I can do things. I am capable. I am capable.
Jesse McCarthy | 31:59
So to... I got to, I'm curious, these two things.
So one is, as you're saying is, Obviously, I mean, most of us have experienced this. If somebody says, you know, you're feeling crappy, you're a kid and somebody says no, you're beautiful. Or you can do it. And it's like, si se puede. And it's like, no, that's not going to do it.
Cause it's, again, it's coming from circling back. It's coming from somebody else. But I'm very curious.
Cause you just said you get that from when you're under six, which no doubt that's your foundational element. But are you saying if you do not get that before six, is it your view that you're, There is no way to remedy that after six.
Sandra Girlato | 32:37
No, absolutely not, but it takes big work. It takes hard work. Really.
So it's not that we're finished at six and there's no way for us to change, but.- I'm going to give you an analogy, and I think we can relate to this because I know that you have other languages in your life. If you get... More than one language under six, it becomes part of who you are. You don't have to think about it.
You know, I don't have to I have Italian and English. If I want to turn around to someone to speak Italian, I can do it even though I don't use Italian a lot.
Yeah. I took French as an academic subject in middle school and high school. And I live in a bilingual country. I live in Canada.- It's very difficult for me. Why? Because it wasn't acquired properly. Under six.
Yeah, I have to think about French, I don't have to think about Italian. And that's the same thing with things that are kind of Unseen confidence. Intangible. - thing. Right. Self-efficacy, all of those things. It's part of the development of the self under six.
Jesse McCarthy | 33:53
Yeah, it seems like, I mean, if you think about our culture today, if there's one thing that people are in need of, I mean, it seems like everybody's on some type of medication to boost your quote happiness or these type of pills. And a lot of it is because. But we didn't get what we should have gotten at a much younger age.
Sandra Girlato | 34:10
Something is not there. And that's why I think about Montessori as a preventative science versus a remedial science. Let's get it right as they grow.
And then we don't have to worry about our people. If we don't, then what happens is we have to try to fix things. And that's much more difficult.
Jesse McCarthy | 34:31
It's much more difficult. I'll have to get the exact source because I don't know if it was Sigmund Freud's daughter or somebody who said, one of the reasons why I like you so much is because you're going to put us out of business.
You know, the therapist. Because the idea, you know, as you were saying, you don't want to correct it. You want it to be done beforehand. Yes. Okay.
So maybe moving on to now the, I mean, self-confidence is a positive, amazing thing, but it kind of feels like a lot of us as adults, we need that work. What might be another story outside of, so we've covered self-confidence, we've got independent, so many different things, but what else do you have?
Sandra Girlato | 35:06
If I could share a little story about, A little boy I had who was my gosh, again, Just probably Between three and four. He was a tiny little guy, so I was always trying to figure out how old he was, so to speak. But he was a beautiful old boy, but he swore like a sailor. Swore like a sailor. Every other word was, you know, this and that, whatever. I had to always call, Stephen, come to me, please.
You know, you can't use that word in the classroom. And That didn't deter him, so I asked to speak with his parents. And I said, we have to help Steven. Not say these words. And the mother said, Well, that's not going to happen. And I said, Okay, why not? She said, well, look, Stephen is a menopause baby, which means I thought I was going through menopause, but I was having another child. And I'm like, okay. Maybe a bit too much information. At the dinner table, she said, it's me and my husband and my two older boys who are in their 20s.
So she said, we swear all the time. My gosh. And it's not going to stop, she said to me. Wow. I said, okay, you know, but that's, you know, they trust me. I trusted them and that's their life. She was honest and I really appreciated her frankness and her honesty.
So I'm thinking boy, what am I going to do with this little guy, right? Yeah. I really wanted him, he was ready to go on to the sort of next part of language development where he was going to write poetry. With the movable alphabet and the movable outfit, you might know, but maybe your viewers don't know as the children put movable alphabet letters together to make words. And I wanted him to. I wanted to show him this work and he would say to me, no, thank you. Every time I called, I said, Stephen, come, I want to show you something. No, thank you, Mrs. Gerlotto.
Jesse McCarthy | 37:09
Very proper.
Sandra Girlato | 37:10
Yeah, and he would come in the morning sometimes and he would say, I'm not doing the move off, but no, thank you. Right.
So I'm like, boy, you know, and that's an important piece because it kind of cascades into other things. Right.
So. He said to me, no, thank you. I said, okay, just come to talk to me.
So he came over and I said, okay, Stephen, you know, all of those words. That you can't say out loud. You can make them with the mood board. - Very unorthodox.
Jesse McCarthy | 37:38
Wonderful. Wonderful.
Sandra Girlato | 37:42
I'm not sure if there were teachers all over the world, decide to make foul words on the mat.
Jesse McCarthy | 37:47
- Yeah.
Sandra Girlato | 37:48
That was his... Moment, right?
So I said, really? Hey, okay. He took his mat and I had a classroom where we had a kind of one-way window. And so parents would look in. Mrs. Montessori could look in, all those no.
Jesse McCarthy | 38:05
Things. Just seeing parents looking in at this.
Sandra Girlato | 38:07
All the visitors could look in. I'm No, I know.
Some of those words are very phonetic. So they look. The way they sound, it.
Jesse McCarthy | 38:18
Right? Yeah, I could see.
Sandra Girlato | 38:19
I'm in the corner a little bit. So not everyone could see but you could see. But the beauty was that was the moment he needed. That was the connection And then after that day, well, actually two days of writing just bad words all the time. He started writing the names of the other children, the names... Yep.
Like things in the classroom. I could totally But that was his moment.
Jesse McCarthy | 38:40
See it.
Sandra Girlato | 38:43
That was, to.
Jesse McCarthy | 38:43
You know, we have.
Sandra Girlato | 38:46
Connect the child where they need to be connected, not where we want them to. So I wanted him to do movable alphabet. But what was his entry point? His entry point was his point of interest.
Jesse McCarthy | 38:57
Yeah.
Sandra Girlato | 38:59
So how can I make those two match? And again, that's as parents, sometimes we want our children to do certain things. And this wasn't a bribe or a reward or anything, but he had such a focus on foul words that, okay, well. Just write them instead of saying them.
So he stopped actually saying them. Except when he was sounding them out to put them on his little tray.
Yeah. And that's so... Connect that interest of the child with the thing that you might, you know, want that you want them to put away their toys. Okay, well, how can we make it? I can go faster. Can you go faster than I can go?
You know, because sometimes children like that challenge or are we going to put them in the box or we're going to put them all in the green box? You know, what's their favorite box? What's their favorite shelf? What is their interest? What is that little hook that we can get them into the thing that they need to be doing. And for Stephen, that really worked.
Jesse McCarthy | 39:53
Yeah. And that, and that's a wonderful example. And I think the best teachers and best people with children I've seen are able to hook the child. And it's that, but the problem is it's sometimes difficult because in order to hook the child, you really have to get into their world. And often, as you were saying...
Yeah, often what you're saying, we're stuck in our adult world and our adult world, it says. No foul language.
So that's even off the table. So that little hook that you did. Is taboo.
So we couldn't have done it, many of us. So... One thing that jumps out to me with this is even talking about this idea of taboo or, you know, you're not allowed to say these things. That's part of his culture. Clearly at home, that's not going to change as people. As another parent in that class, I'm sure other children are going to go home with this foul language.
So it can get messy, this work that we do. Yes. But hearing you say this, one of the things I think is probably messier and worse off is if we push down something that to a child's context seems like good. His mom or let's say his dad and his brothers are using foul language. And what you're telling me is You can't save What these people I care about, I love are saying.
So there's, you know, from a child's context, we're making something taboo that to him is normalized. You know, so in a way you didn't even reject, you allowed an outlet for something that he felt. Was part of him.
So I just appreciate that.
Sandra Girlato | 41:31
Very important. Thank you, just because we have to respect their family, we have to respect the family context. All of our children come from different backgrounds, different ways of living different ways of eating different ways of whatever. And It's not for us to judge, to change, to comment on even. I really appreciated that. As I say, I had her trust. She had my trust.
Look, Mr. Lotto, we're not going to change. Perfect. Right. But I knew in the classroom, our culture was different because as you say, you know, other children would be affected.
So that's why I told him, you can't say those words out loud, because it's not good for our space. I didn't say it Yeah, say them, period. That's not true.
Yeah. And when you child an ultimatum like that, so to speak, you just enhance.
Jesse McCarthy | 42:23
Yeah, I was going to say. - Yeah, because I mean, you know, I've seen this through the years working with children from any age all the way up. The moment you say you cannot do that and they don't understand any reason why they're going to do it more. And with my own son, I mean, as a good example that I think is another taboo thing is young children, they, especially boys, they have private parts.
So the idea that you're going to tell them, no, don't touch that. Don't do that. That is got to be the absolute worst thing. That you can do for a boy.
So it's funny, like for that, I was very purposeful. And like, let's say he was in his room like, touching his penis it wasn't like no you're not allowed to do that it's like you have a penis And it was very, you know, fat and it's just, then it becomes a normal thing. Not that he's doing that all the time, but the idea is that like, you're not scared of something or this is taboo and you're not allowed to do it.
So.
Sandra Girlato | 43:18
You want to just be matter of fact about it. Like it's like anything else. And I have to share a little story with you, Jesse, on that point, especially about private parts.
So I remember one mom, not in a Montessori school. She happened to be taking ballet with my daughter. My daughter was young and, She said, "I am never sending my child to a Montessori school. And I said, why not? And she said, because they make the children too independent. And I don't want my child to be independent. I want my child to need me. Independence does not mean that they don't Independence means that they're being a whole person.
Jesse McCarthy | 43:59
Need you.
Sandra Girlato | 44:04
They're developing all aspects of themselves. And the reason I give you this story because the child was having a lot of, I think, urinary issues and needed to see a doctor. Right. And I didn't. I didn't know that she was having problems for many months. And, I said, well, why not? Right. And she said, well, she can't tell me what's wrong. I said, well, does she know the name of the parts of her body? Because why would I tell my child that? She said, she's too young to know the names of her body. I said, well, you tell her elbow, you tell her hand, you tell her. She said, "Yes, but those are, The good parts.
Jesse McCarthy | 44:45
Other.
Sandra Girlato | 44:47
Parts I don't want her to be talking about. But see, then we've made up. This is okay. This is not okay. And that leaves a lot of residual stuff for us, again, as adults, right? Yep.
Yeah, we need to be careful about that. We don't have to make a point of saying that we do, but we don't have to make. Not make a point of saying. - I.
Jesse McCarthy | 45:08
Think this goes back to the thing I was mentioning about that early, that this justice or this adult context that we're bringing down, like clearly we're not gonna get into like some sexual thing with a two or three, but it's just naming a body part. Like what, but I think that's because we have so much baggage or so much adult context with these body parts that no, You know, and it's...
Yeah. Yeah.
So much of this is really understanding A child's context, which is, it's hard, you know, you and I mean, this is what we do for a living. We work with young children. We can get it. We can better get into a lot of their heads as parents. I know if you've only got one or two children. That you're with, it's harder to really know, they might know their child much better than any teacher could ever know, because you're with them. But you don't know children as such, or the nature of children, because you might not have dealt with so many.
So it's hard to get back to their level. So what do you know, you're sharing some stories, but what do you do to help parents to see, listen, I've seen all these children, they do develop. Don't stress that they're not going to be able to read and there are three or four.
Like, how do you share with parents all the context that you've seen to help them understand the developmental nature of children better since childhood? They might not have experienced so many children.
Sandra Girlato | 46:40
Thank thee. You know, the only way to really know your child is to observe your child. And I know that sounds very... Easy and simple. And it's not for parents, because when you look at your child, you see love, you see your future, you see you're too connected.
You know, I can have a love for the children. I've always had a love for the children in my classroom. But it's a professional love. I can have a distance. And it allows me to be objective. When we have our own children, We're subjective, no matter how hard we try, we're subjective. But if we can sort of step out of that for a moment and really watch our children, what is it that they really like? What is it that they're really struggling with? How are they relating to me? Do they come to me? Are they afraid of me?
You know, what is my space? Look like? Is it a child? Friendly space. Can they do and can they grow in this space in the best possible way? Are those dangerous things out? Can they, you know, fall down and get up by themselves? Can they get dressed by themselves? And that takes time and energy, but it's worth the energy. It's worth the effort. And, It's not easy, but it's worthwhile to do. And to really look at children and don't look at them by, gosh, I want them to be this or I want them to know this, but what are they showing me right now? And it's not easy. And I don't have a recipe. I've been asked this question many times by parents.
You know, just tell me what to do, Sandra. Or, you know, show me the way. And we're all creating our own way because all of our children are like these beautiful gems. That are the first gem on the face of the earth.
So there's no plan. There's no blueprint for your child. You're making that imprint as you go along. And it's important for us to recognize that it's a process and a journey that we travel through together.
Jesse McCarthy | 48:50
And that's kind of one of the reasons I wanted to have you on. And Sandra and I were just kind of talking about like, what should we do this on? And I thought- stories because they can see, you know, in one way, you got to fly in there, Sandra.
Sandra Girlato | 49:03
Yeah.
Jesse McCarthy | 49:03
Yeah. She's smacking something at the top.
Yeah. But one way though, We can see other children, you know, stories through other children and see our own. And it helps us to better see our own children with these stories.
So I really appreciate you sharing these stories. I know we're almost at an hour. We're getting close to an hour. Is there anything else you wanted to share or you got enough out or is there something else you want to? Throughout there.
Sandra Girlato | 49:31
I'm just... I would just say we need to just Enjoy our children. Learn from our children. They're going to teach us again much more than we can ever teach them. I think the beauty in our children is spectacular. And, I'm-- I'll give you one. Special thing. Not so special, but I think it's an important thing for all of our parents to understand. I was touring a government official through Montessori schools. In my province here in Ontario, we've had lots of changes to Ministry of Education and whatnot. This official, that was very close to the premier's office. I toured through the school and the As we were walking through the school, a little boy was working on what we call the thousand chains.
So it's a long strand of beads. And there are a thousand beads on this strand this chain and the little boy had to count and place little number cards for some of the numbers and She looked down and she said, what is he doing? And I said, well, he's counting the bees up to 1000. And she was a bit Again, he was just a little tiny boy, right?
So she bent down to him and she said. What's this number? And he said, I don't know what it was 776. If it's 776, what's going to come after that?
So he looked at her without listening, he said, well, it's going to be 777, right? Like, What else could it be, right? It was just so complete. And she said my gosh, he can count this height? And I said, Yes, of course. Right. With all that beautiful preparation that goes ahead of time. Right. And she said.
You know what? When I have children, they're going to Montessori school.
Jesse McCarthy | 51:27
Nice. Yeah. That's what you got to do. You got to show them. You.
Sandra Girlato | 51:32
Have to show them. And so I urge your parents to go in and observe because their children are so incredibly capable of. Because our environments are set up for these children to really blossom in their abilities.
You know, to space children where they, physically can grow, intellectually can grow, socially can grow, and spiritually can grow.
Jesse McCarthy | 51:57
Yeah, I think it's wonderful. I love that story.
You know, I'm, as you know, Sam, I don't know how much we've talked, but I'm a little radical. I hate the idea that I love that this woman saw that, but I hate that I have, maybe this was a voluntary thing on your end, but in America, there's oftentimes you have to tour around government officials and regulators that come in and tell you what you're supposed to do in the classroom.
So it's nice that she saw this, but here I'd be like, the idea that. Every head of school knows this. If you get a bad apple, that's the one, then you've got to like It's just not a comfortable experience. I don't know if yours was a voluntary thing or this was a, you had to do it.
Sandra Girlato | 52:38
Yeah, no, she wanted to, the premier's office wanted to make changes to our classrooms and I thought, okay, we can't talk to this. They have to see I invited her to come and look and I think that, was her crossover yeah.
Jesse McCarthy | 52:45
It. They have to see it.
Yeah. Turning point.
Sandra Girlato | 52:54
No, we can't change what's going on here. Because what's going on here is real good.
Jesse McCarthy | 53:00
Yeah. Yeah, and in fact, going back to your, the muffin example, I just I love the count in the beads, because that's real math, like they're physically touching 123.
So later, So many children get lost on abstract math because they don't really know what they're doing. You know, it's just such a far.
So, I don't Montessori is just a beautiful thing. And then just the way that, you know, each of us as unique individuals presented and, interact with the child.
So I've appreciated your work in Montessori. I appreciate your work with children, you know, outside, inside and your storytelling.
So thank you so much for coming on and sharing these little wonderful stories with us.
Sandra Girlato | 53:44
Thank you. And there's many more, but you know, those are just some of them because children... Leave you with thoughtful moments all the time.
Jesse McCarthy | 53:54
Thank you. Yeah, maybe we'll have...
Sandra Girlato | 53:56
Sharing it.
Jesse McCarthy | 53:57
Yeah. So maybe we'll have you on for some story time with Sandra.
Sandra Girlato | 54:01
Absolutely. Sign me up.
Jesse McCarthy | 54:05
Absolutely. Awesome. All right.
Well, have a good one, Sandra.
Sandra Girlato | 54:07
Thank you. You too. Bye, Jesse.
Jesse McCarthy | 54:10
All right, coming out of my discussion with Sandra Giarlato, I really just want to highlight a few things that she said, because it was just awesome to listen to her. So first, children are developing their own self-discipline.
You know, the traditional view, it feels like we're disciplining the child. No. Child developing his own self-discipline and we're aiding on the side. Second, let him, the child, have his own impressions. Don't get in the way. Easier said than done, yeah? Third, you can't buy confidence. Doesn't stop a lot of people today from trying, but you can't buy it. And lastly, we didn't get here in a second. And that's really... We've got to stop rushing these kids. Maria Montessori has this amazing quote. I don't have it exact, so I'll probably butcher it here, but it's kind of like the child leaves for school and the mom yells out to her, make sure when you get home, you grow four inches taller, something like that. The idea is like, You would never think to force some kind of physical growth in a day, but we tend to want these kids to develop overnight.
So what we think they can, so we're like on them, you know? We didn't develop overnight. Child doesn't either. Awesome. Thank you, Sandra, again for coming on. Always a pleasure speaking with her. If you actually want to contact the wonderful Sandra Giurilato, head on over to her Foundation for Montessori Education, or that's FME at, where is that? Montessori-ami.ca. There you'll be able to find all the work she does with mainly teachers, but she's working with parents. She's working with children. This woman does it all.
So head on over there. If you want to reach out to me, Jesse McCarthy, you can go to MontessoriEducation.com as always. And I would say last note, if you enjoyed this episode, like it if you're on someplace where you can. Subscribe if you're on YouTube. Share it with a friend. Leave a note. Write a comment. I love hearing these things. I know Sandra and other guests love to hear it. And really just do anything and everything you can to spread the word. More people need to hear this stuff.
You know, I wish I had heard this stuff as an early teacher. I'm so grateful I have it as a parent now. It's just made my life. I can't tell you how much easier as a parent knowing all this stuff and practicing it.
So. Please help get it out there. That's it. Cheers for now and adios until next time.